General Forum

Hi all,

Back in the 70s (and even later) Topps would issue League Leader cards.  Most of the cards were self explanatory, but I was wondering if anyone here knew what the point system used to rate relievers was.  See

Topps 1977 Leading Firemen

Here, Rawly Eastwick leads the NL with 37 points.  He had 26 saves that year, so what else is counted?

Wins. 

D'oh!  Of course!  Thanks, Vvvergeer, for answering my silly questions.  I appreciate it. ;-)

As a first pass, I guess that seems like a pretty decent way to rate relievers, but it's interesting in that Bill Campbell, the AL leader on that card, accumulated 17 wins as a reliever that year!  That's a good season for a starter!

I wonder what the "best" way to rate relievers would be, and I wonder if there is a rating system that would capture the different way in which relievers are used.

Did holds ever count as an official stat?  If not, why not, it seems just as important as a save to me.  I miss the days that pitchers would throw 3-4 innings to get a save, now some throw 3 pitches to get it.

I don't think holds ever made it as an official stat. They're not listed on bbref stats pages.

Last year 538.com put forth the "goose egg" as a stat that could be used to rate relievers.  Here are a couple of links.

Goose egg intro and follow up.

No problem, Hyperdex, just glad it was something I knew. 

I miss Leading Fireman cards, especially because my Cubs almost always had a great closer, no matter how bad the team was. Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith. Even Goose Gossage. 

I don't know if holds was ever an "official stat." Certainly, cards mentioned holds. It was never used for the Rolaids Relief Award or Leading Fireman. 

I miss two and three inning saves, as well. That's one reason I think Lee Smith should be in the HOF. And I miss complete games. Who's got more complete games, Goose Gossage or Jake Arrieta? Guess. 

I'm not sure what the best way to rate relievers is. I know that saves and wins are rough ways to gauge a pitcher's worth, but over the long haul, they actually don't seem too bad. Things like holds and inherited runners scored stats are useful, too, but harder to explain and to just quick look at. If a pitcher wins 20 games, somehow, he was good. Regardless of everything else, he managed to win. Same with saves. If you can close out 30-40 fairly close games and get that last out, you're pretty good. I'm not against all the sabermetrics, but sometimes, a good ol' save or win is just easier. 

I know some people don't like two players on one card, but I was always fine with the NL and AL homerun leaders, etc., being on one card. I loved those cards, in fact. 

But, hey, now we get Twitter accounts!

v3 

I like that goose egg article, but not sure I would call it that.  That would be a nice way to rate them.  I think some managers do try to give their closers the save stat too much.  Some guys like Hoffman and Mo I understand because they were shutdown.  Even Wade Davis is usually shutdown, but Yost got into too much of a rhythm of using 3 pitchers in the last 3 innings (Herrera, Davis, Holland) even when Holland was blowing saves.  It was almost too late before he decided to switch Davis to the closer.  At least KC won't have to worry about blowing too many saves this year since its not like they'll get too many chances to win in the first place.