General Forum

Here's a thought - do we really need scans of every card? 

Blasphemy!

There is ONE problem with "no points for scans after 10,000 points". Level 8 permissions has one condition of 25,000 points to get to it. That condition would have to be removed for this to work. I think it also takes more than 10K points to get to Legend status, but not sure about that.

Then make it where the points are no longer required for any upgrade in permissions or status.

I'm not implying we allow watermarked images, but it's not a copyright issue.  Copyright only applies to the original work.  A watermark is not a copyright.  A scan of a card is not an original work.

Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture (source: US Copyright Office).

sandyrusty wrote:

Problem is that if there is a watermark, it can infringe on copyright issues.  That is why it is clearly said in the rules that no image is to be uploaded with a watermark from another site. I rather have no images than see thissite shut down.

I have stated the solution before: after one has 10,000 points, no more points for scans. Points would continue to be awarded for work done on the site such as checklists, making corrections to checklists, team validation, etc. This will not stop the honest ones of scanning and uploading images of cards they own but it will stop those who are too lazy to do anything that requires more thought and who just upload stolen images from the internet or the same back image in a whole set just for points.

Breck19D wrote:

I will say, I have a ton of cards that don't have images on here, but I don't have the time to scan the cards and upload them. I applaud those that do, because it does help.

I really don't think removing points is going to stop the problems you think it will. 

Very few people care about following the rules. Some people can't comprehend them. Some people know what the rules are and do things wrong out of spite. 

I run a Facebook group with very clearly defined rules, yet not a single day goes by where I or my admin team doesn't have to address a problem of somebody ignoring them. Literally every single day, not an exaggeration. 

The only thing you can do is remove the problem people from the group. Even that causes problems because their cronies start trolling. 

I'm just trying something here. This is copied from a card there, in the area that says "Forum Markup". Let's see how this works:

Edit: Forum markup didn't work here, now trying HTML Markup:

1965 Topps - [Base] #276 - Hoyt Wilhelm

Edit #2 - the text in the markups show (I bolded and italicized what I wanted to stand out):

[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards/Baseball/1965/Topps_-_Base/276/Hoyt_Wilhelm/1822435"][IMG]https://img.comc.com/i/Baseball/1965/Topps---Base/276/Hoyt-Wilhelm.jpg?id=1da0a8d3-2760-411f-9e31-316b5cddfdda&size=original[/IMG][/URL]
1965 Topps - [Base] #276 - Hoyt Wilhelm
[I]Courtesy of [URL="https://www.comc.com"]COMC.com[/URL][/I]

But that doesn't show here. Strange. Anyway, I think it's clear that COMC allows THIS type of use, especially when it's copied directly from the page which states it's allowed to do so (and how to do it). Grabbing the images and uploading them is not the intended purpose of allowing sharing. I know the "watermark" is there for the credit, but additionally, Admin has clearly put inthe requirement THAT IS DISPLAYED ON EVERY PAGE WHERE YOU UPLOAD IMAGES, that watermarked images are not allowed here for image submission. My use of this card in this forum post is actually ok by all rules, regulations, and guidelines of both sites.

people have to understand.. this is a site to depict all cards from each set- its important as each base and/or insert set may have variatoins or errors that can occur intentionally or unintentionally with the cards. With that said, Watermarks are a company's trademark for advertising and such- Agreed- They should NOT be on here along with anything that may violate copywrite laws as previously mentioned ( i think everyone agrees on that)- and I'm sure Admin is hot on that so they don't have to retain lawyers.

My opinion- i think the only time a card with some type of markings on it (like pen ink) should be allowed would be on a vintage CL card. Something maybe that would be hard to come across. And the beauty of it being here, is that, when a non-marked card does magically appear, the new scan can be uploaded over the marked one. 

There is a group of members that are strong, vocal oppononents to the practice of uploading images to the database that are not owned by the member uploading the image. I respect that opinion; we are a community and communities are usually full of differing opinions. However, this discussion comes up repeatedly and is usually initiated by someone finding a badly cropped or aligned image or finding a scan than does not follow published TCDB rules. In this thread it started with a watermarked card. As in this thread, the discussion quickly turns to subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) insults directed at those who do upload scans obtained from internet sources.

Just for the record, I upload scans of cards I don't own. It does not violate the rules to use images found on the internet. Admin has made it very clear in a similar forum post that this is ok (with a few caveats). The image rules still apply, but the practice in and of itself does not violate the site rules.

I am very careful when I select and prepare an image for upload. It doesn't matter if I own the card or find an image on the internet. I take the time and effort to ensure that the scan/image is properly aligned, cropped, and follows TCDB rules. I'm also careful about where I get the image from. I ask permission if it is on another collector's or group's site (nobody has said "no" so far) and I avoid images where the site owner does not give explicit permission to use images.

Most of the images that I get off the internet come from the "Digital Commons". The following statement is from the Metropolitan Museum which houses Jefferson Burdick's entire 330K card collection (Burdick donated his collection with the caveat that it be made available to the public), 

"You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. The person who associated a work with this deed has dedicated the work to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to the work worldwide under copyright law, including all related and neighboring rights, to the extent allowed by law.

You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission."

That statement is from the image on the left (top), which I downloaded from the Met Museum. The image on the right (bottom) is what I uploaded to TCDB. It's not a "mint" example of the card, but it does follow all TCDB rules and I did not "steal" the image from anyone.

To imply or explicitly state that anyone who uploads an image of a card they do not own is violating the site rules is incorrect. To insult those of us who do upload images we don't own not only invalidates a lot of hard work but also makes the site an unpleasant and unfriendly place.

We should hold each other accountable for any work done that violates TCDB rules or is "sub-par". Vrooomed has contacted me on several occaisions where my own work has been "sub-par". He sent me a PM and respectfully asked that I take a look at my work and correct if possible. I was happy to comply and appreciated that he contacted me and did so with respect.

There is much more to this site than images. In fact the images are only a small portion of the work that is required to maintain this database. The work of uploading a checklist and properly doing all the work researching and inputing complete and accurated set information and correctly associating PIDs and TIDs is way more time consuming and (IMHO) way more important to having an accurate database than the images themselves. I have seen plenty of work by members who routinely "throw stones" that fall short in these areas. Take a look at hockey and racing PIDs for example. The PID details on individuals in these catagories (as a group) is sorely lacking. Many just have a DOB (no sample image, no full name, no place of birth). Somebody added a name without doing the rest of the work and someone else has to go behind them and do that time consuming research.

I don't mind doing that. I find it fun and it makes the site better. I take the attitude that someone "blazed the trail" and I'm following along to clean up the details. I wouldn't have an issue with it until I see people who's work I've had to "clean up" start throwing stones at other members. I know for a fact that some of my work has required fixing. It happens to everyone. We all have our priorities and strengths. If we combine our interests/strengths as a community, then we will establish ourselves as the best card reference site on the internet. If we continue to attack each other in the forums new members won't want to stick around and existing members may be hesitant to help "carry the guidon" and add images or do other edits / additions for fear of being "bashed" in the forums.

I don't expect to change anyones opinions with this post or even put a stop to threads like this. I only want add my voice and encourage those who want to contribute but stand on the sideline for fear of doing something wrong to jump in. There are plenty of members on this site who are willing to assist, guide, and (if required) correct mistakes without judgement. And for those of you that do solid work, regardless of where you get your images, thanks! Your efforts are appreciated!