General Forum

I actually am seeing Bob's point on this.  There are very few sets on here labeled as "Broder" cards on here.

Spaz said "I've got to chime in now. ACEO started as a legit term for specific cards from a specific group, but has since become the "Broder" of the 2010's. Now there are other people making "false" cards and using the ACEO term to sell them online. Copycat bootleggers is what's going on there. If they actually show league/team logos without any copyrights, they are illegal productions. PERIOD! No discussion is needed there."

Looking at two examples of the ones labeled as Broder we see these two cards-  

https://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewCard.cfm/sid/87095/cid/6285980/1969-Broder-Oakland-Athletics-2-Sal-Bando

and https://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewCard.cfm/sid/9986/cid/429401/1987-Rob-Broder-Rookies-(unlicensed)-1-Jose-Canseco

The first card shows the Oakland logo on the card and on the jersey.  The second card shows the logo on the jersey.  How are these different then what Spaz is saying are "false cards using the ACEO term"?

I do think sometimes topics go round and round on here, but I see it in a few ways.  First the more its discussed the more it will be pushed to the top so others can chime in and Admin can see there is discussion and make new guidelines or explain the guidelines for everyone to understand.  I also see it as if you feel you keep going round and round with someone and they aren't understanding it, then stop explaining it to them.  Maybe other people's explainations might make more sense to them.

Also since I'm in a mood I'll say this- it seems as of late the way people explain things are more of a "its this way and that's final, my way or the highway" instead of "as I understand Admin's guidelines, its this way" or "Admin told me its this way, but maybe ask him for more clarification".  I was just thinking yesterday how its been a while since we've had big drama on here, and its been great.  That doesn't mean disagreements don't happen, but I hope this doesn't blow up big like a few other things have this year. A quiet and peaceful TCDB is much better then everyone bickering.  REMEMBER, its almost the end of the year, award time is coming soon, SANTA knows when you've been bad, and might not vote for you!

So, I do abstract painting and am involved in the traditional art scene.  ACEO's started in the art scene, having nothing to do with trading cards except they were miniature works of art the size of a trading card, so they could be collected in already existing supplies used for trading cards.  They started as artistist trading miniature pieces of their artwork with other artists.  

Seeing the term used in the trading card industry generally is an excuse to sell unlicensed, illegal cards claiming "it's a work of art".  I have seen many online and as an artist it upsets me because that is not what ACEO'S are.  

As for the Helmar Brewing Company cards, my understanding is their forst set were issued in bags of potatoe chips so they count as traditional cards.  Because they are all hand embelished, PSA stopped grading them because their printing method and hand embelishments make it impossible to authenticate if forgeries come out. PSA did authenticate some in the beginning.  Now, all their cards are 1-of-a-kind and are really beautiful but I would conscider them ACEO'S in the true sense, works of art more than a trading card

The first Helmar Brewing Company set was released regionally in potato chip bags.  All subsequent sets are made to order.  The Future Shock are printed on photo paper... there was one card listed and a member here added 5 more (all Randy Johnson) because there was one card listed and he felt that gave them validity and him permission to add the other 5 cards.  The Monarch Corona cards numbered in the 1000's and are made over long periods (2008-2011), look like vintage cards and are players that were never in the set they copy (and mention the team, the players were the uniforms, etc.).

There needs to be a flow chart... Is it a card produced by a sports card manufacturer?  Yes (add) No (go to step 2)  Is it a card produced by a team, organization, SGA, regional card manufacturer, etc.?  Yes (add) No (go to step 3)  Is it a card produced by an individual on a printer, by an individual through a printer on a on demand basis, an unmarked replica, etc.?  Yes (don't add) No (go to step 4)  All other cards need to be approvd by an Admin before added to TCDB.  

The flow chart is imperfect and is only used to present a possible solution.

I like that Flow Chart idea. At least it gives you some direction. Good idea. There are actually other "cards" that would also work well with a similar Flow Chart. Of course, even with a solid plan, there could be fudging, but that's expected. Crowd Sourced Policing to the rescue.

I've stayed out of this....finding it more important to work on IRs, trade, orgainizing and putting my cards into their correct binder spots etc...you know collecting stuff. Now I'm going to say something......Now somebody is putting in IRs against Chuck's set with the "Isn't this the same thing" specifically citing the sketch cards. And this person is so brave in their stance they decided to do this without being logged in so the sender comes up NULL so we can't see who it is. AHEM----

THIS CHILDISH CRAP NEEDS TO END. This is Admin's site, the card sets are in the IR system up to his decision. The fact that they are still sitting there in black in the IRs means he hasn't yet got to them, or is researching whether they should stay, or he hasn't even seen them yet as other IRs that need his "Seconding" such as removing images have been in the queue for many days. All the arguing and posturing and now, childish "tattle taling" is moot. He'll decide and that is that...

Now back to work. I am clearing the IR against Chuck's set. It will just disappear in to nothingness since the member reporting it wasn't man enough to put their name to it.

Knowing whether ACEO cards are allowed or not would help those entering cards in the DB, and prevent extra work for those who have to eventually remove the cards from the DB. 

That was the question in my intial post (in several week old IRs, earlier posts and as mentioned regarding the 2014 Future Stock cards, a post from 2017).  If ACEO cards are allowed in the DB, I'll second guess every card in the DB that isn't from a well-known manufacturer of cards (to me); if ACEO cards aren't allowed, I'll feel more confident in the validity of cards in the DB.

I worked for almost 30 years with Special Operations, the CIA and NSA... I've never found communications and the sharing of information to be unproductive (and they were secretive organizations).  You would think the TCDB would be more open and transparent?  I have however seen politicians try to attempt to prevent open communications and the flow of information... I wasn't a fan then, I'm not a fan now.

You're saying all this while trying to censor what cards are posted here...somebody doesn't know the meaning of irony.

If a card is allowed in the TCDB and I ask that it be removed, that would be the meaning of censorship.  If a card is not allowed, and I ask that the guidelines be followed, that is not the meaning of censorship (this post).  I, and it appears most others here, don't believe ACEOs are allowed on the TCDB.  That was my initial question in this post... which appears to still be unconfirmed.  This uncertanty has caused the majority of the above comments.  If there were clear guidelines for all to see; this post would have been moot.

The problem with "clear guidelines" is actually from the ever evolving nature of card manufacturing and the hobby in the recent past. When the site was created Living Sets, stamped buybacks, digital cards, and yes these ACEO cards didn't exist (I'm sure among other things also). The reason there is no guideline on them yet is this is the first time that I can recall it ever being brought up. The guideline won't be created until ADMIN makes the decision on the sets in the IR queue that you brought up. As has been brought up in previous posts this site is crowd sourced. ADMIN has final word as he created the site, but I'm sure the guy also has a life and with these still in queue, along with many other things he has final say on (like image removal) going untouched the past several days he has not been on site doing things (click on the the Things to Do link and look at the needs approval tab it is over 200 items long). Their is only one ADMIN and it is impossible for him to review everything added. Some of us have more editing power on the database, or the ability to change many things, but ultimately any decision on whether something is acceptable is up to him. Like I said in my previous post, this is his site we just live in it. 

llafoe63 wrote:

If a card is allowed in the TCDB and I ask that it be removed, that would be the meaning of censorship.  If a card is not allowed, and I ask that the guidelines be followed, that is not the meaning of censorship (this post).  I, and it appears most others here, don't believe ACEOs are allowed on the TCDB.  That was my initial question in this post... which appears to still be unconfirmed.  This uncertanty has caused the majority of the above comments.  If there were clear guidelines for all to see; this post would have been moot.