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I post this not to cause controversy (though I know it will), but rather to address one of my fears that may be coming true. So I apologize in advance for bringing up this topic yet again, especially to those who absolutely hate these discussions, but I also feel like maybe it should be addressed. I’m posting it in the site forum because it applies to multiple sets, even though the discussion I’ll be referencing talks about one example. I'm not posting this to piss anyone off, or "stir the pot" (that's still Bob's job).

I was scrolling through Twitter this morning, and came across an exchange that concerns me. A couple of TCDB members were involved, and one of them started it. I won’t name them, as that really isn’t relevant. What is relevant is the discussion topic I noticed. The original Tweet was in regards to the realization that there are now the three versions of 1991 Donruss cards, and some frustration by two members about having to deal with keeping everything organized with so many small variations, especially dealing with late 1980s and early 1990s (variations that are “straight-forward”, a.k.a. modern, were acknowledged at one point, with no more than a touch of frustration at the company’s gimmicks themselves, rather than at the TCDB listing of them). Then another collector chimed in, stating “This is one thing that keeps me off TCDB”.

And that right there, my friends, is my fear and concern. It has been since the beginning. Have we gone too far? Are we losing members/not gaining new ones because of our fixation on these differences? I’ve always said that it is my belief that our obsession with this level of documentation would lead us down the road to loss of hobby credibility by doing "too much", and I feel like this is another step down said road. The early Donruss cards and the Upper Deck hologram mess are the two cases I primarily think of, though I’m sure that at some point there will be more.

I don’t have answers. Heck, maybe this isn’t even a problem, or no one shares my concerns, and I’m making a mountain out of a molehill, I’m not sure. I probably haven’t even made my thoughts and feelings clear enough for many in this post. I know there will be backlash for me even hinting that we should “cool it” on the variation documenting, and I’m prepared to read that in response, no matter how harsh or angry they might be. This isn’t meant to be attacking, or “I told you so”, or even to suggest we do away with what we have (there was way too much work involved by those [not me] who took on the documentation of these early Donruss sets for me to even suggest removing or altering them). And at the end of the day, this is Admin’s site, Admin’s world, and Admin’s rules – I’m lucky enough to live in it and document my collection. I guess I just wanted to share my frustration and sadness at the fact that there are hobby members intentionally avoiding our site because of how we list and document certain things, and it makes me very, very concerned for the future of TCDB.

Just some Thursday morning thoughts. Y'all have a blessed one.

I support your post in its entireity. You have documented my feelings better then I could have :)

To be clear, I TOTALLY RESPECT the other side and clearly see their view.

For me, its just MY preferance. 

I personally don't really pay attention to VARs that were not intended to actually be a VAR by the manufacturer.  Printing process changes, ink issues, etc- to me it is still the same card.  Things like a new Billy Ripken card or Randy Johnson Marlboro are much different.  With that said, I can't ignore the fact that many collectors out there really do care about these differences.  

Here is an example, I have cards from the 1990-91 Fleer NBA release that has the back line variation.  I have never seen this variation found or listed before it was brought to light here.  Since all this time has gone by and Fleer more than likely didn't intend on these being seperate or parallel cards, I don't differentiate between them in my collection.  I have some with the line, and some without.  To me, it's the same card of the same set.  

The nice thing about this site is that I can list them in my collection how I choose.  I mainly use this site to track my collection, talk about the hobby, and learn new information.  I think the reason it doesn't bother me at all is that I am not much of a trader, so it's not like I would be disappointing someone by not giving them the correct card.  I can understand how there could be frustration among people who are active traders.

I know it may sound silly, but I even checked some other sources to see if the Fleer variation was listed anywhere else, and to my knowledge it is only listed here.  Granted, that may just mean we are more accurate and more detailed, but I would be more inclined to seperate them if it wasn't something that was only acknowledged in one place.  

I think Shannon has expressed most of my thoughts on this. I don't collect variations. I don't trade much here. I use this site to keep track of my collection, chat about the hobby, learn new things. I keep obvious variations, where the same player appears on two teams for example, 1979 (?) Topps Bump Wills comes to mind. I do not seek out such things. I sell my 5-card rookie variations that come with the Topps factory set.

While I respect the large number of collectors who actually do care about variations, when I read the various threads, I do often think to myself, "Really?! Who cares? How is that a 'variaion?!" But once you get on that slope, it's hard to stop. I'm not the judge of what counts and what doesn't. I'm not gonna start trying to differentiate between variations and parallels. It usually doesn't affect me. Sometimes it does and it sort of annoys me. Recently, I got a messages saying that about half of my 1974 Topps Checklists were variations. After much searching, I found the difference. I got all those cards the same way, in packs bought in 1974. Why some have an extra little star on the back and others don't, I have no idea. I doubt that Topps thought it was issuing "variations." I suspect it just happened to put an extra star on some of the cards. So long as this site acknowledges that I have the complete 24-card set, I'm fine with it. It does, I think. (I'm gonna go check again. -- Well, it doesn't really. I entered all the cards originally as the same. They have all been left in the "one star" set. That's a lie. Some of my cards have two stars. So, yes, it's a bit annoying that I have to lie on here about my collection in order for it to appear that I have the full set of 24 cards, which in my mind, I do. I won't be leaving the site over this, however....)

In the end, I suppose it's useful for those minute differences to be documented somewhere, especially because some people really like those little quirks. That's not why I collect, and I don't care. This site is incredible and incredibly detailed. As long as basic common sense prevails, TCDB can document every period and printer's mark, for all I care. If there are a few collectors who choose to avoid this site because they can't deal with that documentation, I'm not too torn up about it.

v3 

We have actual, long standing members of this website who don't know or care how it works. If somebody wants to "take their ball and go home" I feel like we're probably better off without them. 

There are things that are done wrong here. Making up nno when cards have numbers is a major knock against our credibility, and that donruss set you mentioned is just a mess. But we still have literally Millions of cards that are listed correctly. There's far more listed correctly than incorrectly. If people want to whine about a couple of things that are bad and ignore all the good...would they really ever be good contributors? Maybe....maybe not. 

I probably should avoid this thread, BUT I can't. 

I collect ERRs/VARs and CORs, have for longer than many of you have been on earth, well maybe.? Everybody on here knows it, everybody knows I relish the chase of "new", "old" finds. Where can you find junk wax gems in your 1988 Topps boxes? But I do. I rather collect these than 2019 cards. TCDB is for all card collectors, like it or not....if not, like King Billy said, go away, use a spreadsheet or another site, no tears shed, goodbye. There is a large devoted group of variant or semi-variant collectors here, p--s them off and the site will crash. Why do the fingers always point towards this group? They don't bother anybody, track their collection, trade, post,....certainly not any different than the new Pokemon group.....should I point my finger? NO, I don't care, not my thang!. Pokemons, enjoy, collect, and use our site. I'm sure you will all be really happy to see my User Lists on ERR/VAR/COR cards.....Enjoy collecting, Be happy!

I sort of understand both points of view on this attention to variants details. For the database it is essential to note differences in printings. Just as a book database should note the varioius differences of a book's different editions. As a collector I am not that detailed for some of the small ones. I don't really care if my Topps card has one asterisk or two by the copyright line.

For purposes of the use of the database with these I wish there was a way to have a generic check for Yes I have card number 101 and that is that. Then if the collector wants to go into more detial they can check off that they have the 2 asterisk, alternate photo with date of birth error version of card number 101 (as well as the 2 asterisk, alternate photo with date of birth error corrected version of the same card)

CaptKirk is on to something that I wish existed, a way to either turn on the Variations in your settings for specific sets, or to turn them off. Everybody gets what they want that way.

yes :)  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This may also help my want list. Meaning, I could filter out what I don't want. 

rmpaq5 wrote:

CaptKirk is on to something that I wish existed, a way to either turn on the Variations in your settings for specific sets, or to turn them off. Everybody gets what they want that way.

Bill Kingsley, Can you clarify what you mean when you say "Making up nno when cards have numbers...". Where and why is this happening on the site? Tks.