General Forum

I know we've all talked the grading subject to death, but I had to ask this. (Quick background: I hate grading, but buy vintage graded cards on eBay because I fear counterfeits).

How is this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/121215318445?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

graded exactly the same as this card http://www.ebay.com/itm/112373798932?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I'm really asking. Is it that the centering is off on the one that isn't stained and with rounded corners and creasing? And why is the obviously better one only a 2? The little thing on his face? If I were selling this ungraded, I'd call it very good, based on everything I've seen, read, and experienced. These look to be about a 3 and 1.5 to me. Maybe even 4 and 1. What am I missing? I know there are worse examples than this, but this is the card I most crave at the moment, and I encountered these two.

Ahhhhhh!!!

v3

Interesting, seems one has more rounded corners and off center. Grading is subjective and would love to hear PSA explanation on why they graded a certain way. One looks like it should be lower.

 Unless you have the cards in hand, it is tough to see some problems with the card.   Also, I have a problem with the graders.   They obviously have a lot of people doing this across the country (I could be wrong), not just one or two guys in the same office.    What the grader in Michigan might see as a 1.5,  the grader in Texas might give a 2.0 to.   Lot of room for discrepancies.   Also, if you go to the PSA website, they also throw in the "eye appeal" as part of the grading process for certain cards.

Right, NJD. That's my point. One card is, almost objectively, way better on eye appeal. I mean, c'mon, one of those cards looks like it was used as a mat during an oil change. It's corners are, well, not corners anymore. I suppose up close the other card could have some hidden flaw that puts it on par with the other one, but I doubt it. But we trust this company to decide the grade, and hence the value, of cards? If they say something's a 10, it'll cost you countless times more than if it's a mere 9 or even an 8. Those differences are miniscule and not even noticeable by most people. But they have a hube impact. The differences in these two cards are blatant. It's clearly entirely subjective, which makes the whole process useless. Except, perhaps, for authentication purposes.

Man, I wish there was some way to either eliminate the grading craze althogher or to make it more consistent. Sorry for the mini-rants.

v3

I've run into similar situations with coins as well.  I'm usually happy to just take the better looking one for less money and don't worry about the number on the holder.

-Tom

I don't remember who made the video, but a couple years ago there was a documentary on the authentication scandal of a Honus Wagner card by PSA. I'm sure many of you know way more about it than I do. I didn't really care much about the fake Wagner card, but the video showed the process that PSA goes through to train thier authenticators and the authenticating and grading process. It made me skeptical about the whole grading process. Besides the fact that the card is stuck in that ugly slab of plastic, the whole process is subjective and spotting a good fake seems to be difficult for even the "experts". I've seen bad fakes (Marino and Elway rookies) and I could spot those myself. Those are the only two known fakes I've seen, so I'm not claiming to be a forgery expert. But as far as grading goes; I know what a good card looks like. I have my own criteria and I don't really care about the opinion of PSA, BGS, or any of the other grading companies.

I suppose there is some value in increasing your odds of getting a legit card on ebay by buying a graded card. But in determining the condition....I value my own opinion much more than a grading company's. The two graded cards I bought on ebay were immediately cut loose from that ridiculous piece of plastic and are now free to viewed (and yes...handled) like they were meant to be.

Sorry about the rant, I know I'm probably preaching to the choir.

Being a big fan of centering, I'd probably prefer the stained card with rounded corners.  The centering is nearly perfect, so I wouldn't hestitate to give this the 2 half-grade bonus that Beckett allows for its grading (which would be at least a 2.0 if someone wanted to call it 1.0 to begin with).  I think it starts at 1.5 + 1.0 = 2.5 (maybe 2.0 + 1.0 = 3.0 or maybe not).  I'd have to see the crease situation, which the scan does not always show.  This card probably looked really nice coming out of the pack, and only seems to have honest wear caused by many years of enjoyment.

I can't stand off-centered cards, and I especially can't stand diamond-cut cards.  This card has both, and would have to be downgraded even if it was pack fresh.  The image is cocked and the card shape isn't a 90-degree cornered rectangle.  The card was born handicapped to begin with.  Beckett gives a GD 2.0 for noticeable diamond cutting and 100/0 back centering, which I think is close (maybe 2.5 or 3.0).  If the 2 half-grade bonus was implemented for really nice condition in other areas, I could see this going up to a 3.0 (or 3.5, or 4.0) if the corners, edges, and surface were deemed to be much better than the centering factor.

In summary, the cocked card might actually be up to a grade higher, but I still like the centered but worn-out stained card more.   

roundthediamond87 and collectingafterdeath...both your answer are intelligent, articulate, and on-topic. I apologize for my off-topic rant.

That's okay.  I can't stand graded cards, and have cracked every one I've ever received (not many).  My oldest slab cracks were a 1950 Bowman P.Rizzuto and a 1950 Bowman C.Stengel.  I also heard of graded counterfeits (especially for 1952 Topps Mantles).

I do understand the "get it graded for authenticity" angle for the most part, but since I'm a slab cracker, how am I going to sell it later?  If I have to buy it graded just to be sure, then I probably shouldn't collect it.  That's why I "hate" counterfeiters.  I'm only missing Nolan Ryan to complete the 1968 Topps set.  I only want to pay 10% BV for the card ($60), but I know i'd be lucky to get it for 15% BV ($90).  The only reputable sellers I've seen have it starting at 25% BV ($150).  Now, there's a guy on there right now selling a N.Ryan RC for $90, but he can't tell me what the Altered label means from his cracked PSA graded card.  I don't trust it. 

If I can't buy it ungraded, then I guess my sets will just never get completed.  Let's see: 1968 N.Ryan, 1967 T.Seaver, 1963 P.Rose.  What other '60s cards out there are heavily counterfeited?