Card Identification Forum

Wait, wait, wait.

It does depend on what the company did as to how we notate it.

Scenario A:
10,000 cards released - 2575 of those 10,000 are AU (and SNed), leaving 7425 "normal"

Scenario B:
10,000 cards released as "normal" - and an additional 2575 card released autographed

Which is it?

I was just looking it over when ranfordfan sent his last.  I agree with him - any other way makes it seem like there are 12,475 printed of each. Having looked it over, I think the VAR method is the way to go. The "1" card would be PR10000; the "1a" would be VAR, AU, SN2475 with a Note 2 saying VAR: Autographed (though some may say this is redundant, the AU is required in the Note field so that filters may work; the VAR: Autographed is required so that the VAR is explained and a member is not left wondering if he is missing something).

I'm not sure where SaintOrm got their information from, but I am good friends with a former Signature Rookies dealer.  All print runs printed on base cards are how many base cards where produced and do not include any autographed cards.  All autographed cards should be serial numbered (with just a few exceptions), and are not included in the 10,000 print run.  So if the base cards for this set say 1 of 10,000 and the auto's are serial numbered to 2,475, that means that a total of 12,475 of each card was produced, with 10,000 unsigned as the base set and the 2,475 signed as the auto's.  As for numbering them 1a and 1b etc. that wouldn't make sense because the autographed cards are not considered variations of the base cards, they are considered inserts, just like every other Signature Rookies product.  

You can list the base set as PR10000, but most other Signature Rookies sets don't have the base sets with the PR notation, although most if not all of them have a stated PR on them.  For the auto's they should be listed as an insert with AU, SN2475 unless there were any that did not have the full amount signed (which was somewhat common with Signature Rookies).

That is really the question.  If it is as you said, and you appear to have an inside source, then it is 2 separate sets; the VAR no longer applies.  If this info could be verified, then in the release notes of both sets, it would be good to have.  This is the sort of info that helps all collectors, no matter what sport or non-sport. But the problem we face is in getting absolute verification.

In the way Celticwolfco describes the distribution, then the insert set should be "AU, SN####" (depending in the actual SN for each card). A release note on the insert set itself should read something like: "Although the same cards for base set were used for the autographed set, the base set was printed to 10,000 cards while the autographed versions were in addition to that." My wording stinks here, but you see the point I'm trying to make.

Oh, and base set should be "PR10000" on each card.

I don't want to prolong this debate, but let me try to explain my logic on what should be the correct notation - for the purposes of identifying a card on TCDB.

Granted, even if a card has a stated print run of 10000, did the company only produce 10000 of that particular card?  No, most reputable companies would produce extra cards to accomodate for production errors & mishaps, or even allow for exchanges when a collector sends back a damaged card for replacement.

So, since the released version of the card states that it is 1 of 10,000 made, for identifying the base version of this card a note of "PR10000" is correct.

However, when a secondary version of this card is physically different in some way (signing, stickering, stamping) and has a unique serial number added to the card, the original print run quantity is a moot point.  The autographed version is numbered to 2475, therefore it should be noted as "SN2475".  Whether or not these cards came out of the original stock of 10000, or out of a vast secondary supply of unknown quantity, the "PR" label is superceded by the "SN" label.  Only an SN should be used to identify the autographed version.

There were no "unsigned" autograph cards released (intentionally), so the "print run" of the autographed version of this card equals the stated quantity in the serial numbering.  

My argument is that a card should never have both a "PR" and "SN", in order to identify it.

(to paraphrase Sy Sperling, "I'm not also the President of Signature Rookies, I'm only a client.")

There are occassions when PR & SN are needed. (Donruss pulled this off where the sets were SNed to say 1000, but then the first 100 were Die Cut. Two separate sets, but they will be SN to 1000, but only 100 die cuts, and 900 non die cut.

Non-die cut "base" insert set - Note = SN1000, PR900

Die cut "parallel" insert set - Note = SN1000, PR100

In this case (Sig Rookies), the AU card itself states 1 of 10,000 printed, then has a SN of significantly lower. Since these seem to be in addition to the 10,000 base sets, the base set cards should get PR10000 and the Auto cards should get SN#### for each true SN run. Something should be put in the release notes that extras of the base cards (that are marked 1 of 10,000) were used for the autographs but are not part of the base set run.

If it was the other way - the 2475 (or whatever number) were taken from the 10,000 print run, then the base set would have to show that the "true print run" of the sets was PR7525, not PR10000 as stated on the card.

Release Notes is a highly under-utilized feature on this web site that we need to make better use of.

Yes SaintOrm, I would definitely agree with that!  Any card that has an actual serial number should never have a PR in the notes as well as a SN.  And as a reminder just in case any newer members read this thread, if it says something along the lines of 1 of 10,000 or something like that, that is considered a Print Run number (PR).  If it is specifically numbered, for example 357/1,250, that is a Serial Number (SN).  There seem to be some people uploading checklists that are confused as to which kind of number the card has on it.  So, if you are uploading a checklist and don't know if it has PR numbers or SN numbers, please leave the note field blank and post in the forums asking for someone who knows the set to add either PR or SN to the cards.

Just in from Admin: "AU, SN2575, PR10000"

Thanks C2C - I guess you decided just to ask. :)